Welcome, Guest
Username: Password: Remember me

TOPIC: Class Rules

Class Rules 3 years 7 months ago #1207

  • Myles Mence
  • Myles Mence's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Banned
  • Posts: 128
  • Thank you received: 2
  • Karma: 1
Dear Committee

Excuse me what is going on? I have just tried to have a look at the class rules on this site and cannot find them. Instead there is a manufacturer's statement. Under this statement is a paragraph which paraphrasing states that: adjustable forestays are not permitted whilst underway.

The last time I looked at the class rules a couple of months ago adjustable forestays were specifically permitted and there was nothing to say the boat had to be stationary.

The adjustable forestay whilst at sea is an important rig control. If for any reason they are to be banned by the class association steps should be taken to have the issue correctly voted on at an AGM. Indeed this very issue was touched on at the most recent AGM (see the minutes) and there was no mention of this control being illegal - even by the manufacturer.

I have always made it clear that I adjust my forestay whilst at sea and others do at Lymington too.

What is going on?

Myles 7571
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Class Rules 3 years 7 months ago #1208

  • Myles Mence
  • Myles Mence's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Banned
  • Posts: 128
  • Thank you received: 2
  • Karma: 1
OK I've now read the minutes of the last AGM thoroughly. I see the manufacturer's statement replaces the class rules. The chairman suggests a relaxed approach to the adjustable forestay issue which I am all for.

However the issue could become unrelaxed at a race meeting if someone were to protest the underway adjustable forestay.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Class Rules 3 years 7 months ago #1209

  • Myles Mence
  • Myles Mence's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Banned
  • Posts: 128
  • Thank you received: 2
  • Karma: 1
Dear Simon

Thank you.

(This connects with the Facebook thread).

I feel rather foolish.

At Northampton I never read the Manufacturer's Statement (MS) either before or after the AGM; until this morning, hence my shock.

The reason for this was that at Northampton I was busy preparing for the racing in the morning and then repairing my boat in the evening right up until the AGM took place. I was aware the MS was on the board but at the back of my mind was the assumption that the MS would be in line with the existing class rules, tidy them up if you like.

And so during the debate at the AGM I had no idea - believe me - that the MS was changing one class rule for another. Perhaps just as well as I would have attempted to stick my oar in during the meeting if I had known.

The facts are that the MS was not published on this website before the AGM and so the wider class including myself will have been unaware of its contents. A class rule specifically permitting a sailing adjustment has been rescinded and now forbidden. This action alone should be subject of debate at a class AGM. This is not to question the authority of the SMOD. But the class association and SMOD have a symbiotic relationship and a process step has been missed out here.

Why am I hot under the collar about banning the adjustment of forestay tension whilst underway? Because it is a retrograde step for the class. Adjusting the forestay whilst underway is a simple matter and makes the boat go faster if one is light. This increases one's sailing pleasure. With one hand the introduction of the carbon mast widened the weight range for the 10.4 sail and yet with the other hand this rule change is taking progress away.

This matter has not been thought through properly. As Martin says I will be fine adjusting my forestay at the Nationals at Hayling Island but it could be dodgy at the Tiger Trophy (which I plan to attend).

It causes confusion and bad feeling if a rule that has been in existence for a number of years is rescinded by decree and without proper debate. As a matter of interest how many masts have fallen down due to adjustable forestays?

Yours sincerely, Myles
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Class Rules 3 years 7 months ago #1210

  • ifoxwell
  • ifoxwell's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Fresh Boarder
  • Posts: 14
  • Thank you received: 4
  • Karma: 0
I don't have, nor do i particularly want, an adjustable fore stay however it does seem strange to allow it for a good number of years...let people change there boats and get used to the system... then ban it again?

Ian
807
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Class Rules 3 years 7 months ago #1211

  • Stewart609
  • Stewart609's Avatar
I would like to see the adjustable forestay remain. Its quite important on a chop such as I see most times sailing on the Medway. Having a tin mast I sail with a slack rig and in a chop the mast can smash about all over the place. This is especially prevalent when the wind is light and planing power boats blast past. The inertia I feel produces forces on the shrouds which I suspect exceed those of purely sitting out. The only remedy is to tighten the forestay. Its a safety feature - or I could sail with a permanently tight rig which is not as fast.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Class Rules 3 years 7 months ago #1215

  • whizsplash
  • whizsplash's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Fresh Boarder
  • Posts: 17
  • Karma: 0
Deleted
Rob
678
Last Edit: 3 years 7 months ago by whizsplash. Reason: Double post
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Class Rules 3 years 7 months ago #1216

  • whizsplash
  • whizsplash's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Fresh Boarder
  • Posts: 17
  • Karma: 0
I have to admit that although I was at the meeting at the Inland's, I am still unsure as to what agreement was reached if any?

- The manufactures statement seems to have banned adjustable forestays.
- The class secretary suggested a relaxed approach.
- Mike (Cirrus/Manufacturer) stated that he was against adjustable shrouds and gave a sensible explanation as to why this was the case.

It was all a little confusing and I think that some official clarification from the Manufacturer and the Class should clear it all up.

For my own part I sail with fixed settings and never change any of them regardless of the conditions. Allowing me to concentrate on sailing the boat rather than fiddling with it.
This is my excuse for not challenging the confusing messages at the meeting. I do promise not to protest anyone for using an adjustable forestay though,
Rob
678
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Class Rules 3 years 7 months ago #1217

  • Myles Mence
  • Myles Mence's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Banned
  • Posts: 128
  • Thank you received: 2
  • Karma: 1
I have now had a chance to focus on para 5b of the Manufacturer's Statement (MS).

Para 5b of the MS published on this website constitutes a change to Blaze UK Association Class Rules (CA). The "old" rules specifically permitted adjustable forestays without limit. I do not believe this change has been legitimised by the CA.

The MS was discussed at October's AGM as indeed was the issue of adjustable forestays. However procedure at the AGM did not create the conditions for a change of rule, specifically rules 17, 26 and 36c were not satisfied, therefore no change of rule has been made.

Note: the current wording of para 5b is suitable for publication on the manufacturer's website (Cirrus) for the benefit of the international fleet.

But as regards the CA, para 5b should be either re-worded or withdrawn until a change of rule has been passed by the CA.

Currently it is legitimate to adjust one's forestay at CA events but not at non-CA events.

I look forward to the comments of a committee member to confirm or refute my points.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Class Rules 3 years 7 months ago #1218

  • paulsailing
  • paulsailing's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Moderator
  • CA Secretary 751
  • Posts: 71
  • Karma: 0
Representatives of The Class Association have been in discussion with the Rights Holder/Manufacturer (Cirrus Raceboats) concerning the recently issued Manufacturer's Statement.
It has been agreed to postpone to 1st January 2016 the introduction of the ban on adjustable whist sailing forestays. The ban on adjustable shrouds remains.
This has been agreed to give owners/sailors time to make the necessary changes to their boats.
The Manufacturer's Statement will be amended accordingly.
Paul Taylor
Chairman, Blaze Class Association.
Mike Lyons
Cirrus Raceboats
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Class Rules 3 years 7 months ago #1219

  • Myles Mence
  • Myles Mence's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Banned
  • Posts: 128
  • Thank you received: 2
  • Karma: 1
Dear Paul

Thank you for your response to this thread.

However you do not address the overriding issue in the thread that para 5b of the MS constitutes a change of class rule. Under CA rules members are entitled to vote on changes of rule.

Therefore to state that a rule change will take effect from 1st January 2016 would appear to be presumptuous.

Possibly I am missing something and would be most grateful for your advice.

Yours sincerely, Myles
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Class Rules 3 years 7 months ago #1222

  • paulsailing
  • paulsailing's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Moderator
  • CA Secretary 751
  • Posts: 71
  • Karma: 0
Cirrus Raceboats has now published a rationale for the ban on adjustable shrouds and forestay. For those interested this may be studied on the Class website on the Info dropdown - Manufacturer's Statement.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Class Rules 3 years 7 months ago #1223

  • Smartster
  • Smartster's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Moderator
  • Blaze Helper
  • Posts: 33
  • Thank you received: 2
  • Karma: 3
I understand Mike not wanting to be liable for any costs, but I'm intrigued to try and understand the reason for the actual cause...
From reading the statement, I'm presuming that all these damaged masts had adjustable forestays then, and they all suffered a very similar failure as the masts were left up during storms whilst still in the compound...? Or were the boats out sailing at the time of failure??

I just can't imagine why an adjustable forestay is more risk - unless the issue is the adjustable purchase system breaking, and the owners did not utilise a back-up safety line??

On my boat that had an adjustable forestay I used to tighten it just a little when not racing to stop the mast flopping about whilst in the compound.

The Solution class for one has always had adjustable forestay and does not suffer this issue.

Only curious as I'm thinking is there something specific I should be looking for to help prevent this happening to my mast?

Best regards
Christian
Christian
Blaze 568
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Class Rules 3 years 7 months ago #1224

  • Stewart609
  • Stewart609's Avatar
Surely the carbon rigged boats don't use the adjustable forestay? I was under the impression that they used some rig tension. As for the tin masts - they use a slack rig because the mast is very stiff and thus it doesn't get as much support as it would with a tensioned rig and thus bends a bit.

If this is so the adjustable forestay only applies to old masts and therefore is not subject to any warranties. And in that case only new boats should be subject to this rule, and since they don't use an adjustable forestay it can't be an issue for them.

So what's all the fuss about. Boats with new masts should be told by the supplier that they don't approve of adjustable forestays. Boats with old masts should be left to do as they please.

I'd like to know more about the type of failure being experienced - it might have a bearing upon how I rig my mast.
The administrator has disabled public write access.
Time to create page: 0.244 seconds
Powered by Kunena Forum