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TOPIC: Carbon Masts

Re: Carbon Masts 6 years 1 month ago #193

  • Kev M
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Perhaps bling was the wrong word in some respects, but perhaps it is about perceived value from a new buyer's perspective if they're looking at two new dinghies of similar prices, one has a carbon mast and one has carbon wings.

The OEM has said that the carbon wings have very little effect on new boats (compared to lardier old boats) and that the carbon masts do have an effect. If someone were choosing a new boat are they likely to be swayed by the boat that costs the same price but comes with the carbon mast?

If so then this is what is going to affect the future of the class surely?
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Re: Carbon Masts 6 years 1 month ago #194

  • Myles Mence
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Simon

Good of you to big me up and thank you - I was lucky on the day - whenever it was. I would hate people to think my enthusiasm for carbon masts was part of an agenda to benefit lightweights please believe me it isn't.

My enthusiasm for carbon is purely to improve the handling of the boat.

Myles
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Re: Carbon Masts 6 years 1 month ago #195

  • simon
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Hi Myles
58th at the Bloody Mary wasn't bad considering the handicap and the conditions on the day.
No link with masts and your weight you just happended to be a good example of the point I was trying to make. Namely crew skill is far more of a factor than your weight or boat. Assuming you have a good sail and the boat is set up correctly.
Simon aka "Andy the dancing farmer" Blaze 800
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Re: Carbon Masts 6 years 4 weeks ago #196

  • Crazyman
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I have to agree with Simon in that the hand on the tiller is the most important bit of kit in the boat. The only time when weight does become an issue is in the marginal conditions and even then there are advantages and disadvantages on each leg. The Blaze tolerates weight very well in light conditions, look at the inlands, at a lardy 90+kg I somehow managed to be at the front of the fleet chasing flyweight Christian. Equally in the heavy stuff the lightweights are still able to compete using the right techniques as shown by Christian and Eden Hyland at last years Nationals. My expectation is that a carbon mast wil not make a major difference, except perhaps on a small gusty lake where the characteristics may make sailing in sudden gusts easier. I look forward to trying it out and seeing for myself.

As agreed at the last AGM, this season,the CA committee are undertaking a review of the implications of carbon masts being allowed into the class. This will cover all aspects from the potential effect on the class, the sailing issues, PY number, Cirrus's opinion and commercial requirements as the Rights holder and designated manufacturer etc. This wil be cirulated to all CA members and other interested parties prior to the next AGM for discussion in that forum.

As such I seem to have been designated the coordinator of this report, so any opinions, reports on sailing with Mike's sample mast, etc. will be greatfully received.

Martin Saveker 774
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Re: Carbon Masts 6 years 4 weeks ago #197

  • Bert1
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So if you all seem to agree that lightweights can sail the boat with a tin mast in the heavy weather & do well plus the heavyweights can sail the tin mast in the light weather & the nut on the end of the tiller is the most important componet.

SO Why are people pushing for carbon at the expense of devalveing older boats & adding the expense of a carbon mast?.
Is it just a vocal 3 or 4 people who want the mast? after all at the AGM when this was raised only 3 - 4 people voted for it out of 40 odd present.
The thing is as soon as the class allows carbon masts as a option that is class legal & has diffient bend characteric`s & less weight above you effentively have a new faster boat & any potenticail buyers of secondhand boats will want an "allowance" in the asking price if the boat they want to buy hasn`t got a carbon mast - i would want the "allowance" in the price so I expect others would too.
I can not see how allowing carbon masts will not be a de valueing factor on second hand boats.
586 / halo 586
Last Edit: 6 years 4 weeks ago by Bert1. Reason: because I can`t preview the post
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Re: Carbon Masts 6 years 4 weeks ago #198

  • Cirrus
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Hi All

Please don't get too agitated over this issue. We have a process in place, let it run its full course - we've done it in the past without any discord and the only purpose of the work is to gather more information this time round that is all. There are many considerations that could be taken into account and only one of these is technical suitablility.

Mike L.

PS - the 'tube' being reviewed emulates the M7 in terms of stiffness - ie the current sail works fine with it and the class weight demographic is very unlikely to be changed IF it were ever adopted.. No ... I'm not promoting a particular view here ... just stating the fact.
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Re: Carbon Masts 6 years 4 weeks ago #202

May be I'm on my own here but I'd rather we devoted some time to testing a lighterweight rudder stock / blade assembly than carbon sticks. This would remove weight from the stern and open up the possibility to produce a different tiller profile (aka lower) which could help avoid the hooking issues those of us with off-boom sheeting occassionally 'enjoy'. No radical development involved IMO, there's plenty of decent solutions out there in classes like Scorpions, Fireballs, Phantoms etc... even the kind of composite stocks seen on Solos....to base testing on.

Just my 3p worth.
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Re: Carbon Masts 6 years 4 weeks ago #203

  • greyyotta
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The rules say the rudder stock is unrestruicted, see below.

3.6 The choice of rudder stock and tiller is unrestricted – however these must be made from aluminium alloy or stainless steel.

Nick.
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Re: Carbon Masts 6 years 4 weeks ago #204

  • Myles Mence
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Dear usuallydoing720's

I use a Wishbone rudder stock which must be about the lightest/simplest alloy stock one can conceive of and find it very good. Rondar supplied it, give Paul Young a ring.

PS This is on a Mk3.

Myles
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Re: Carbon Masts 6 years 4 weeks ago #207

  • Cirrus
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Hi All

Many of you who have seen my prototype rudder stock apparently want one. It is the lightest possible in alloy but is extremely rugged... and significantly more so than the Ziegermyer / Rondar type (sorry Myles we asked PY to do it first but ..). Anyway I am now working with RWO to productionise it and we may be able to show you one at the Dinghy Show.

Nick is correct - ANY metal stock can be used. However if any of you turn up with a titanium one there will be a very fast design rule change !

Mike L.
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Re: Carbon Masts 6 years 4 weeks ago #208

  • Myles Mence
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Mike

Delighted you are able to supply.

Myles
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Re: Carbon Masts 6 years 3 weeks ago #225

Meanwhile back at the carbon mast debate........

Whilst the Blaze is a 'one design' surely its survival is down to the CA reviewing possible improvements - where are all its Topper stablemates of the late 90's........?

The new mast needs to be tried out by different people in different conditions. Only once the possible benefits can be properly quantified can the decision be made.

Until then I'll be working out what that stick at the back of the boat does......

Mike.
Blaze 757
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Re: Carbon Masts 6 years 3 weeks ago #226

  • Bob
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I'll be happy to give a carbon stick a going over in the north sea environment, where the Blaze is happiest!?

Cheers

Bob
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Re: Carbon Masts 6 years 3 days ago #271

  • Cirrus
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Hi All

Nothing further to report on carbon masts myself .... but both Paul Taylor and Simon Beddows tried it today and I'm sure they will report. Paul did a couple of races and Simon took a spin at lunchtime.

Mike L.
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Re: Carbon Masts 6 years 3 days ago #272

  • simon
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Hi Mike
Although I didn't compete in the racing today( I am still on my Icon sabbatical) I did take the opportunity to try the carbon mast. On returning to the clubhouse with a big grin on my face my first comment was I wish I hadn't done that! I have experienced the carbon mast on other boats the Icon in particular and have seen what advantages they offer. I can't say it was any faster I was the only boat out. The Blaze is a great boat, the carbon mast quite simply makes it even better. It was typical gusty Burghfield conditions today, a good test. The gust response was the most noticeable aspect of the mast. The other improvement I found was the ability to make much less of an issue of gybing in gusty conditions. The front of the boat feels lighter so would probably get up onto the plane quicker. You do need more kicker. I look forward to trying it in a racing situation. Would I buy one .... Oh yes, in fact I could even be tempted to get one and sail out of class.
Finally I urge you to at least give it a go, it really does give the boat a great feel. I know Mike is keen for as many of you to try it. It will be available at the burghfield training day at the end of March.....enjoy!
Simon
Simon aka "Andy the dancing farmer" Blaze 800
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