Welcome, Guest
Username: Password: Remember me

TOPIC: Carbon Masts

Carbon Masts 6 years 7 months ago #141

  • Myles Mence
  • Myles Mence's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Banned
  • Posts: 128
  • Thank you received: 2
  • Karma: 1
Dear All

There is a thread on the Y&Y forum currently re: Blaze Carbon Masts. One of the contributors points out that the Cirrus website makes mention of the class's trial this season for carbon masts.

Should not this website also have a post to the same effect ie that carbon masts are being trialled this year to determine whether or not the Blaze class should adopt them?

The purpose being to raise/maintain awareness amongst current/potential owners so that the notion does not come as a surprise and to keep the debate going so that people are familiar with the merits or otherwise of carbon over tin.

Myles
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Re: Carbon Masts 6 years 7 months ago #142

  • greyyotta
  • greyyotta's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Senior Boarder
  • Posts: 52
  • Karma: 0
Good point Myles, come on Mike tell us how does the boat feel with a carbon mast?

Nick
757
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Re: Carbon Masts 6 years 7 months ago #149

  • Cirrus
  • Cirrus's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Expert Boarder
  • Posts: 93
  • Thank you received: 2
  • Karma: 1
Hi All

I like it a lot .... but that does not necessarily mean that it is the right move commercially. As an individual I'd have one right now but then I may not be typical and the issue is much greater than just what I might like myself. Officialy therefore I'm remaining neutral and will remain so until the AGM when Cirrus will formally report on the testing. I'm saying this upfront so my comments on 'how it goes' should not be misinterpreted as favoring it. But you asked so:

What you do notice is the boat feels a tad more lively... the +ves are many:

1) lighter
2) Centre of balance lower
3) lower drag - ie better aerodynamics - due to smaller (round) diameter
4) Better gust responce - mast quicker to 'work'
5) Boat even less likely to invert if you do 'bin it' (it is very good already)
6) mast comes up more quickly after capsize - lightweight impact
7) Damage can generally be repaired

The -ve's then ?

1) Switching cost for existing owners
2) .. er I'm struggling already but if you go for a black finish you will have to varnish every couple of years - I'd go for white myself.


Is it faster ?

Probably but not as much as the hype you might hear about carbon sticks generally. The desaign of the spar has to be right - 'carbon' is just a material name and has many flavours. I've raced a few times against the other BSC guys now and off the line it feels good but I do not appear to have an immediate advantage .. possibly a bit faster away from each tack though. It might plane a tad earleir and stop planing a tad later.

So if the impact is marginal why ?

For an answer to that one you will have to try it. The handling feels so much crisper and the Blaze is already bloody good in my biased opinion. Feels a total 'thoroughbreed' like Icon and good Merlins.

Would it change the weight demographic ?

Only if we went for a 'soft' stick - the current one is more resistant, as needed to match the current sail, and I do not think it will warp the profile of crew weights in the class.

As I've said already I do like it but if you were to buy one tomorrow expecting a dramatic move up the class results think again ... you would probabaly do better buying a new sail and replacing your tatty slot sealer ! On the other side of the equasion we do have to appeal to a wider audiance, we need to attract class newbies in order to grow significantly further in the UK in my opinion - many believe a class is sitting in the 70's if they already use carbon or believe you need it. This appears to be the case on the continent where ..... new class = must have carbon rig ... and it is a new class to many out there.

I'll do some more testing soon and then do come and try it yourself.

Regards - Mike L.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Re: Carbon Masts 6 years 7 months ago #160

  • Myles Mence
  • Myles Mence's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Banned
  • Posts: 128
  • Thank you received: 2
  • Karma: 1
Dear Mike

Many thanks for this. Re: your final para "grow significantly further", we are in the area of how the Blaze is perceived by outsiders/potential owners.

This is an element of the mix which is hard to quantify yet important and desirable for existing class members to have a grasp of.

Are you able to give people a feel for numbers of new boats built over the last few years year by year? Would this show a trend? Are there parallels to be drawn from the period leading up to the change from GRP to Epoxy?

Myles
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Re: Carbon Masts 6 years 7 months ago #161

  • Crazyman
  • Crazyman's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Moderator
  • Posts: 32
  • Thank you received: 3
  • Karma: 11
I would have to say that the public perception is possibly the more important one for the classs rather than the marginal performance improvements.

Over the last 12 months I have had several comments about the lack of carbon masts and the'70s perception mike mentioned.

However, once people sail a blaze this does not seem to be such an issue. But for how long?

Martin 774
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Re: Carbon Masts 6 years 7 months ago #163

  • Cirrus
  • Cirrus's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Expert Boarder
  • Posts: 93
  • Thank you received: 2
  • Karma: 1
Hi Myles

I must repeat that I am (ie Cirrus) running trials involving carbon masts but I will not get actively involved with promoting one particular view prior to reporting later this year. We have run similar assessments in the past (about every 3 years in fact) and so far have rejected any change. All I feel mandated to do is gather additional information and input in relation to carbon options today .. and report to the next AGM as in the past. I personally like them and would have one myself but commercially other factors do have to be considered and there are also good arguments for maintianing the status quoas as well as for change.

I know a number of you are itching to get your hands on one and I will facilitate this in due course - but please do not assume this indicates that they are to be adopted. But we will test them through 2012 and regular CA members will get a chance to try them.

Mike L.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Re: Carbon Masts 6 years 7 months ago #165

  • Bert1
  • Bert1's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Fresh Boarder
  • Posts: 5
  • Karma: 0
If the class is willing to pay for the replacement mast required to update my boat so it will keep it`s value then great but other wise No thanks.

You also say you have had several comments about the lack of a carbon mast where as I have had none at all, not one.

Also from MY point of view I also have a HALO mast, do I have to buy a HALO mast in carbon that is not required for sailing reasons but for perception reasons so the value stays the same. Which obviously means that I have still paid out an extra £1200 a mast to keep up with the jones or lose the same in resale value this would in effect make most boats in the price range of £2000 worth less because the buyer will want the carbon mast or he/ she will not be interested.That will in effect move the price of second hand boats up from 2K to 3K for the same hull,sails experence, there`s no extra value in that.

To my mind as a phantom sailor as well as a blaze sailor the carbon stick isn`t the large step in performance that the cost would suggest. The over head weight of the mast is reduced but the effect is only felt when the wind is "honking" & we have the racks to overcome that.

Realistically if I had a carbon mast on my boat would my sailing position in the fleet improve - possibly not / possibly 1 place or so if the wind was honking otherwise the diffience is VERY small however the price of a carbon mast is about £1200 for a standard Phantom mast so that's £1200 to replace a mast that doe`s not require replacement.

I returned to the class because the boat was a good boat to sail & fun on the sea, the broads , rivers , open water & when the wind was up -well you know the rest but with the must have requirement for an upgrade to stay "in the game" weather that is for perceived requirements or for sailing improvements that have yet to be seen.
Also making the carbon mast the same as the original will not work either because when you sell your boat on to another buyer they will want the carbon mast regardless so your boat is de valued anyway.

In summary for me this seems like a push for a decision for the vote at the AGM based on perceived effects of carbon & how others look at your boat, It also seems that the value of second hand boats isn`t taken into consideration.

Bert
586 / halo 586
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Re: Carbon Masts 6 years 7 months ago #168

  • Bob
  • Bob's Avatar
My Scottish five pence worth... Having had a fleet within the club develop into double figures within the space of four years and never once have I been asked about carbon sticks, it does question the rational for investigating this development route when the current configuration proves popular to attracting sailors from lasers, Rs100, fireballs, 300's etc into the fleet. All of these previously mentioned classes don't have carbon sticks... To my knowledge, and still have relatively healthy members, both nationally and internationally!?

Is the Blaze a development class?? Not, what I bought into.

As mentioned in a previous thread, I would agree that the CA runs the risk of out pricing the older boats and more financially restricted sailors maintenance/upgrading budgets, and therefore be less attractive to potential Blaze sailors looking at joining the fleet on a level playing field.

The boat in my opinion is a great set up as it stands, without trying to squeeze minimal performance improvements with carbon rigging. Greater gains in performance on the water can be made by the soft fleshly human holding the stick with technique and practice, than by changing a mast. Just ask the fireball crew as we overtake them on a fetch...

If the carbon mast does provide greater performance gains than anticipated then the gap between the alloy and carbon boats becomes even more difficult to cross, and then even more less appealing to potential new members, resulting with the potential decline in new blood to the fleet.

I think this puts this haggis munching sailors opinion on the table.

Cheers

Bob,(waiting for the polar bears to clear off, before launching the boat again in March...)
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Re: Carbon Masts 6 years 7 months ago #171

  • Cirrus
  • Cirrus's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Expert Boarder
  • Posts: 93
  • Thank you received: 2
  • Karma: 1
Hi Bert

Do not be too worried at this stage. It has been reviewed several times in the past already and rejected by builder and CA. As current builder we are not going to endorse anything that would damage the class, or from a position of commercial self-interest, the sales of boats.

Running trials, as in the past, does not indicate approval ... or rejection for that matter. It is however important to regularly assess and gather new information. In this case we are being very open and are listening to all views - there are two stages 1) technical suitablity and assessment 2) Commercial assessment and impact on class growth. You can establish technical advantage without necessarily thinking it is best for the class ... but one stage at a time

Mike L.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Re: Carbon Masts 6 years 7 months ago #178

  • Dave_777
  • Dave_777's Avatar
I would echo the point that the majority of club sailors are saiing boats with metal masts supernova's, lasers ; fireballs, albacores most of the RS range.
Generally new sailors may be put off by the increase cost especially if there is no great advantage. I really do think that the class expansion is limited by the lack of good secondhand Blazes, rather than the type of mast on the boat
I joined the class to sail a great boat that was diferent to other boats, dont spoil it.

Dave 777
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Re: Carbon Masts 6 years 6 months ago #183

  • Kev M
  • Kev M's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Senior Boarder
  • Posts: 48
  • Karma: 1
I've followed the carbon masts thread on here and YnY, I'm new to sailing and the Blaze so feel free to disregard what I'm about to say.

It seems to me that carbon masts aren't going to offer a huge performance increase, certainly not one that justifies the cost of an upgrade, although the price difference when buying a new boat is probably less than an upgrade.

A couple of people have commented that when comparing to other new boats in a similar price range they would be put off by the lack of a carbon mast. I suspect that this isas much about the bling factor and the perceived value or what they are buying than any performance issues. Perhaps those views shouldn't be overlooked if more new buyers are to be attracted to the class.

Mike has countered thst the Blaze has carbon wings which other boats in a similar price range don't and those definitely add to the bling factor but perhaps they're adding carbon to the wrong places commercially. Perhaps the carbone wings could be replaced with aluminium and a carbon mast added whilst keeping the same price point. This would satisfy those demanding a carbon mast when looking for a new boat and comparing specs and prices.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Re: Carbon Masts 6 years 6 months ago #186

  • Myles Mence
  • Myles Mence's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Banned
  • Posts: 128
  • Thank you received: 2
  • Karma: 1
Kev

As you say there is a bling element to carbon masts and for the class to change from tin will cost money however the advantages go deeper than mere speed:

Mike has outlined above the specific advantages of carbon and so I won't bore you by repeating them - the sum of them is that the nature/handling of the Blaze will be improved.

(If this season's trial shows no handling improvement the whole issue is knocked on the head for another three years in any event).

Just about everything else on the Blaze has been brought up to date since the mid-90's, arguably only the mast remains to be modernised.

Currently the class is thriving: it is a good boat, the class is administered by an excellent and energetic committee, ditto the class builder who gives close support.

I would argue that the time to grasp the nettle is when the class is healthy and full of energy. In years to come should the class go into decline and momentum be lost it may be too late for the change to have impact.

When is the watershed?

Myles
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Re: Carbon Masts 6 years 6 months ago #188

  • Bert1
  • Bert1's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Fresh Boarder
  • Posts: 5
  • Karma: 0
Myles Mence wrote:
Kev

As you say there is a bling element to carbon masts and for the class to change from tin will cost money however the advantages go deeper than mere speed:
Mike has outlined above the specific advantages of carbon and so I won't bore you by repeating them - the sum of them is that the nature/handling of the Blaze will be improved.----So YOU think that a carbon mast will improve the speed / handling of the boat therefore all boats without it are at an disadvantage thats OK :pinch: buy me a carbon mast & I`ll be happy

(If this season's trial shows no handling improvement the whole issue is knocked on the head for another three years in any event).----History say`s that the class members are NOT keen for the previous votes on the subject at AGM`s

Just about everything else on the Blaze has been brought up to date since the mid-90's, arguably only the mast remains to be modernised.

Currently the class is thriving: it is a good boat, the class is administered by an excellent and energetic committee, ditto the class builder who gives close support.----Fair enough.

I would argue that the time to grasp the nettle is when the class is healthy and full of energy.---Full of energy I agree full of loose cash you are kidding right?
In years to come should the class go into decline and momentum be lost it may be too late for the change to have impact.

When is the watershed? ----The watershed is any time that YOU pay for the carbon mast that MY boat needs to be able to attain the same place it had in an tin mast fleet.

Myles
586 / halo 586
Last Edit: 6 years 6 months ago by Bert1.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Re: Carbon Masts 6 years 6 months ago #191

  • Kev M
  • Kev M's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Senior Boarder
  • Posts: 48
  • Karma: 1
If you haven't read the 2011 AGM minutes that have recently been posted Bert then they're worth a read IMO. Myles makes a good point about the future of the Blaze as other dinghies move towards adopting carbon masts and Mike raises a good idea on the possibility of having two PYs, one for carbon and one for aluminium.

Personally I'm not against the idea completely if it is going to help the boat and the class survive against tough competition oin the marketplace or if it makes someone with deeper pockets faster than me because I have a lot more holding me back than my mast but I'm sure those thoughts don't apply to many other people.

My concern would be about how the carbon mast could turn the Blaze into a dinghy for lightweights. If I wanted to race with a distinct weight disadvantage I'd have saved my money and bought a knee wrecker.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Re: Carbon Masts 6 years 6 months ago #192

  • simon
  • simon's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Senior Boarder
  • Posts: 51
  • Karma: 0
Sorry Kev we are already here. Myles being one of the best sub 70kg sailors. Lightweights as you would expect do much better in lower wind strengths, however there are heavier sailors who also compete well in the light stuff and lightweights who can hold their own when the wind blows. At the end of the day the carbon mast will just make it nicer for everyone to sail. At least try it all you doubters.
As for bling I think that is a red herring, I much perfer my ally wings on my Mark 3, masts are black anyway so from a distance does it matter. Devalue secondhand boats, they are like hens teeth so will make very little difference. You dont have to buy one, you can still club race with your ally mast and attend opens, we have boats of all ages in the chocolates at opens and the nationals. If you want to get to the top of the fleet its all about time spent in the boat and keeping your eyes out of the boat. Please dont let this opportunity slip away, I really dont want to wait another 5 years.
Simon aka "Andy the dancing farmer" Blaze 800
The administrator has disabled public write access.
Time to create page: 0.655 seconds
Powered by Kunena Forum